Episode Transcript
Ben Tregoe: [00:00:00] Hey, it's Ben Tregoe and we're back with the profit forecast I have today, Justin Seinfeld from Doris Dev. I'm really excited to be talking with him because he's, we're gonna talk about supply chain product development and everything that goes into bringing your product. Into the market and, Justin's experience there.
Ben Tregoe: Doris dev is legendary in the DTC space. They're on product or excuse me, OnDemand product development team, full suite of product development services with offices in New York, and then engine manufacturing teams in Hong Kong. So they can do everything. And if you look at their client list, it's literally a who's who of, DTC brands like gravity blue end.
Ben Tregoe: Great. By humankind pattern, supply canopy. And I think I'm, I didn't, I missed about two dozen or more. So Justin welcoming. I'm excited to, to talk
Jason Seidenfeld: with you today. Yeah. Thanks, Ben. Great. Great to be here. Thanks for having me on. I glossed
Ben Tregoe: over that intro and I left a lot out. So I think it would be great if you could give a little bit of how you came to this idea, your background in the space and some of the current work that you're doing today.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah, for sure. I will start with just in summation re framing what doorstep is, which essentially we are. Full suite product development service company that helps bring product to market from ideation through shipping. So we've got internal teams to lead the work around product design engineering, sourcing, supply chain, setup, and management program management, quality control, logistics, fulfillment, operations, and distribution.
Jason Seidenfeld: So really end to end. And we do that across our two offices in New York and Hong Kong. And as you mentioned, we have worked with a ton of predominantly direct to consumer digitally native brands. A lot of them, we started working with them pre-revenue so before they launched to market, helping them bring their product to market and then support backend supply chain set up and operations as, they continued to grow.
Jason Seidenfeld: And the Genesis of Doris dev actually came about before do before, do. I had been working in consumer product development for about, well now over 10 years, but the roots of the company actually started back when I was working at a company called quirky which was a VC backed tech enabled product development company based in New York.
Jason Seidenfeld: A lot of people know of it from tech or VC cuz it was a really cool, amazing concept. We had a huge community of, people around the world where we were essentially crowdsourcing ideas. And then through the platform, we bubbled up the best ideas that we would design develop and bring to market through our own distribution channels and operational infrastructure and all of.
Jason Seidenfeld: And it was an amazing experience except it ultimately spiraled into bankruptcy in a really dramatic fashion. But it was a great learning, learning experience and got to wear many hats during my time at quirky and met my co-founder and partner at Doris Lucas Lapi who's our head of product who is a, product engineer.
Jason Seidenfeld: He was actually an intern at quirky at the time, but we, connected while we were both working there. And a lot of the team from Doris actually came from quirky after, it's spiraled off of cliff. And actually Doris dev is named after the first employee to in Quirky's Hong Kong office who initially was, going to be part of the Doris team.
Jason Seidenfeld: But unfortunately passed away from, breast cancer when the year that we started the company. So it was a nice tribute to, to yeah. But yeah, but in short, so we were doing a lot of the work that we're doing at Doris dev back in the day of herky, a lot of the team members across design and, supply chain management and, quality control all came from quirky.
Jason Seidenfeld: The big difference is at quirky, we were taking kind of the capital risk, the investment. Set up and cost of goods within the four walls of, quirky it, it lived on their balance sheet. And with Doris dev, we basically have set it up such that we're a service partner where we're getting essentially hired as a hired gun to help support all of the work that's needed to bring those products to market, but we're not necessarily taking taking that capital risk on set up or inventory costs ourselves.
Jason Seidenfeld: And I [00:05:00] started, we started the business about six years ago now. So we've been around for six years and it's evolved. It's grown. It's, changed a lot over the course of that time. And then I'll also highlight that through that period. We've also done some interesting things with the people, the process, the infrastructure and network that we've built out.
Jason Seidenfeld: Most, most notably we actually have incubated and helped to launch two other businesses. So one is a hardware product business called canopy, which is a humidifier that is focused on providing healthy skin benefits. So really positioned as like a beauty tool for, healthy skin. And that has its own Genesis story within the four walls of Doris.
Jason Seidenfeld: But now is a standalone separate. That works with Doris the same way that we work with a lot of other brand partners. And it's doing really well and has its own dedicated team and on P and L and destiny and everything. And so that's been really interesting because through that experience, we've been able to sit on the other side of the table as brand owners, not just as service partners.
Jason Seidenfeld: And then the other business that we incubated outta doorstep is called factory quality, which is actually a a software platform business that centralizes quality control operations for physical product brands. So for that business, we actually, we took work that we were doing internally doorstep, which was quality control operations.
Jason Seidenfeld: We partnered with a software team to basically build a digital version of the work that we were doing to manage and, track everyth. And then spun it out into a separate standalone company that now works with a ton of other physical product brands to support visibility and managing all of the work around quality control, product inspections, product testing really anywhere in the world, wherever supply chains exist.
Jason Seidenfeld: So I think across the three businesses the doorstep being the hub, everything kind. Funnels back into this this, world of product development and supply chain set up and management and really making, stuff making products. That's
Ben Tregoe: awesome. That's so cool. How do people, as, listening to you talk and then thinking about your customer base, like when do they outside of factor.
Ben Tregoe: Factored quality. What, when did they engage with you? When did they, is it like at inception or are you getting mature? Companies are like, oh, I'm thinking of this like new product launch
Jason Seidenfeld: or, yeah it's, actually an interesting mix traditionally, or when we started the business it, really was meant to focus on kind of ground floor startup founders.
Jason Seidenfeld: They've got an idea, but they don't necessarily know how to bring the thing to. And it was meant to really get, into the weeds of pre-revenue pre really brand or product existing in, the world and, help lead the work and set up the infrastructure and supply chain that could get handed off to them when they were ready to run it themselves.
Jason Seidenfeld: But over the last six years, it's definitely evolved and we've seen, we've, started to, work with brand partners that are in market and actually even. Really history bigger product businesses that are looking to figure out how to do things a little bit more quickly or more innovatively.
Jason Seidenfeld: We've, been able to engage them and, bring our process and our approach to efficient product development into, their world. So it's been a really interesting mix. I would say probably our, bread and butter really is starting with an idea. And then leading it through the design process, figuring out how to set a, set up a supply chain for scale really efficiently out of the gate, incorporating that into like how we think about the, design work up front.
Jason Seidenfeld: And that, that's where I think we unlock the most value for, our brand partners. Okay.
Ben Tregoe: Let me
Ben Tregoe: Let me come back to that, to the, at the beginning stage. But if I were a brand that was saying, Hey, I'm doing this new launch, or I want somebody to help me with my supply chain or process.
Ben Tregoe: Are there any types of companies that are better than others for, you? That CPG or not
Jason Seidenfeld: beauty or, yeah. Yeah. So that was kinda the right fit though. That's a good question. Our, team makeup and our network and our experience has really been in durable product. Okay.
Jason Seidenfeld: So really like housewares, kitchenware, electronics, connected hardware, a ton of packaging, anything durable, we, have experience designing, building and manufacturing. The two areas that we really don't take on are, or categories I should say we [00:10:00] don't touch are consumables, so we don't do anything formulated or wet chemistry based.
Jason Seidenfeld: We do work with a ton of CPG brands or beauty brands or food and bed brands where we're innovating around packaging. So thrills of packaging or user experience around like how the packaging gets designed and, manufacture. But we're not leading the work around formulation for the consumable part of their product offering.
Jason Seidenfeld: Okay. And then the other category is apparel, right? So we do stuff in soft goods textiles around for housewares and things like that. But we won't, we're just not set up to support like fashion brands or apparel brands at scale. It's just a totally different beast in terms of.
Jason Seidenfeld: Supply chain networks, as well as like operationally having to manage so many skews across sizing constraints and things like that. Okay. Yeah. And
Ben Tregoe: now if I'm a I'm a founder, I'm thinking of, I've got an idea is Doris dev like one of my first calls is this even. Raising money
Jason Seidenfeld: and yeah, Build a prototype on my own or yeah. We, or you getting people that
Ben Tregoe: are like, as things, a total, a disaster
Jason Seidenfeld: go back to the blind board. Yeah. Yeah. Candidly, we I love being that first call. I love having that first conversation of Hey, I have this problem and I have this idea for a solution and I don't know how to bring that thing to We we basically, the way we've approached product development and this even comes back, I mentioned quirky, but this comes back from like the quirky days is really framing it around problem solution and unlocking value through whatever the solution is. And our lens isn't to design something then for the sake of designing it's really can.
Jason Seidenfeld: Whatever we're gonna get to work on. Is it something that can be commercialized for scale? And we think of it through that lens. So we would never, we wouldn't just take on a project where it's like, Hey, we're gonna design this thing and we're gonna hand back pretty pretty drawings and you can then go figure it out.
Jason Seidenfeld: We want take on a project where we're gonna design it and carry the Baton all the way through manufacturing at scale. And so those initial conversations where it's I don't even know where to begin. We love. Because there's a lot of there's a lot of different directions. You can take an idea in, and sometimes those directions don't even involve product, right?
Jason Seidenfeld: Like I've had conversations where it's I've got somebody calling saying, Hey, I've got a great idea for this new thing. And after we dive into it and we realize like the best possible solution might not actually be like producing a custom new, physical good in the world, it might be creating a. Or matchmaking things that already exist and maybe that's the direction or the path that we set the founder on.
Jason Seidenfeld: But it's always an it's, the most kind of fun or exciting part of the process, which is there's so many, there's so many opportunities, so many different directions, you can take it in. We love trying to figure it out. And, a lot of times though, too, in those first conversations it might be that, Hey we the problem, the potential solutions, how we would frame it or think about it, if it were a physical product, and then there's gonna be homework that comes outta that conversation where it's like in order to justify or come up with the direction that we want to take, here's information that we want to figure out.
Jason Seidenfeld: And in order to figure out that information, there's homework that needs to get done, whether that's like gathering sentiment feedback from customers or potential consumers in the wild. Surveying your friends and family to get some data points on something or whatever it might be, but there's typically like homework in that first step.
Jason Seidenfeld: And and then it becomes really fun if there's homework that gets done and it unlocks something really incredible for for us to get working on
Ben Tregoe: is potential pricing.
Jason Seidenfeld: Part of that homework. Yeah. I think part of problem solutions, you. Prob, the, problem landscape with product is, often that product market fit just doesn't exist from a pricing perspective, right?
Jason Seidenfeld: There might be a gap or misalignment between the value that something is providing and what people are willing to pay. And pricing sensitivity is a really important consideration and probably the most important consideration. For us, when we think about whether or not there's an opportunity to introduce something new is really can it exists within the landscape of all the other things that are out there.
Jason Seidenfeld: And it makes sense that somebody will pay this amount of money for whatever it is. [00:15:00] Yeah.
Ben Tregoe: We see, obviously we're on the financial side, so margins are so critical. And it, that seems to be one of the hardest things that for founders and DDC brands is like getting the margin structure.
Ben Tregoe: And so there's this fear often, I think of having prices that are too high, if you're cost of goods is too high and you have too low of a price, like you're just in a trap, right? How do you with a new product into market? Feel out, whether there's a premium price or a higher price for that, I can imagine if it's a brand new thing you, get to set the price maybe, but if it's a better known product, like a houseware people have expectations of what those things should cost.
Ben Tregoe: How do you figure out pricing then? Yeah
Jason Seidenfeld: I think that's a great problem that doesn't have a, an easy answer per se. But it, really is probably one of the most important parts of the equation to figure out early on. And what I would typically say is we've seen brands, we've seen brands get in trouble because of pricing.
Jason Seidenfeld: And it's typically because they're pricing things too low with the assumption that oh, I can acquire a customer and then that's okay if I have a lost leader on my first product. Because I'm gonna get them to buy products. 2, 3, 4, I get them on the subscription and my subscription component is gonna be so sticky that there's gonna be no churn.
Jason Seidenfeld: And we've seen brands run into problems with that in mind, the other end of it is coming in with too high of a price point means that you can't necessarily figure out product market. Or, whether or not there really is true demand because you're pricing yourself out of it out of consideration.
Jason Seidenfeld: So I, it there's, it really is a it really should be treated as something that needs to be fine tuned and, refined through, trial and error. And what we would typically recommend is you can start, you can always start with higher pricing and work your work your your retail pricing down over time.
Jason Seidenfeld: It's really hard to do the in. And it's also what I would say is really important to bake in perspective on lifetime value for customers, whether that's through additional product offerings, even if you haven't developed anything out of the gate, but it's through additional products down the line or subscription components down the line.
Jason Seidenfeld: It's really important to make sure that you're thinking about how you're going to increase lifetime value. From your customers be before you bring any new product to market, because ultimately you are going you're gonna be in, in the business of selling product. And at some point you're gonna saturate the market with all the customers you can acquire.
Jason Seidenfeld: And you just need to be thinking about how you can be expanding your business beyond that. Yeah. I
Ben Tregoe: that's terrific advice. I think. That oftentimes people's expectations of lifetime value are unrealistic, right? Oh 5, 7, 8, 9 purchases down the road all within the first 18 months.
Ben Tregoe: And, and, then you, base your modeling plus your your customer acquisition on those, like. Down the road purchases that can come back and haunt you. Yeah, for sure. And
Jason Seidenfeld: sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, I just, I don't, it's something that I think isn't doesn't necess shouldn't be treated as like a set it and forget it.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah. Ideal. I think with pricing, I think it's, important to be sensitive. It's important to be iterative and sensitive to what. You're seeing as feedback from your customers and be open to making changes. And sometimes what that means is like figuring out a merchandising strategy beyond just like this one product that we're selling so that you can offer more value from bundling it with other things or creating creating an onboard, an onboarding ramp to your brand that makes it really frictionless.
Jason Seidenfeld: But I think ultimately what's important is like figuring out a or being open. To testing refining iterating on pricing until you feel like you've hit that sweet spot. You've narrowed in, on product market fit from a pricing perspective. And when you go
Ben Tregoe: through this analysis with a new brand, how what's, what are some of the assumptions around the reduction in [00:20:00] cogs or per unit pricing over time?
Ben Tregoe: Like, how do you, how do people think
Jason Seidenfeld: through that? Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think there's a really big assumption that as you scale production volume, you're gonna unlock this really efficient means of reducing cogs. And what I would say is it's not as material or drastic a as most people expect out of the gate.
Jason Seidenfeld: And so it's, it is really important to be somewhat conservative. That approach, if you're solely reliant on just the raw material costs for of the product essentially being reduced over time because you're, driving higher volumes. And a lot of times brands are like thinking like I'm gonna do five to 10,000 units of this thing, in the first, few months.
Jason Seidenfeld: And then by the end of the year, we'll be at 20,000 and next year we'll be at 40,000. You're not gonna unlock those material cost savings at when we're talking about tens of thousands of unit variances. You need to be driving hundreds of thousands of units in order to really see material changes to like raw material costs.
Jason Seidenfeld: That being said, there's other opportunities. There's other levers that you can introduce to reduce your costs of good. Earlier or more like dramatically than just from like raw material cost savings. And a lot of times what we'll do is we basically work with brands to figure out how to get the V one of a product to market as efficiently as possible.
Jason Seidenfeld: And then prove that there's product market fit start gathering feedback from customers around what they like with the product, what they don't like, what are frustrations, what are things we can improve on? And then start introducing, running changes into the product that kind of turn it into this iterative process to get it better and better.
Jason Seidenfeld: Each time we go through production runs and through those running changes, a lot of times what we will do is introduce cost savings. And that can through like redesigning parts or changing aspects or elements of how we does, how we make the thing a really easy example. And I can point to canopy for this.
Jason Seidenfeld: We went through probably in the first 12 months, five to six different iterations or running changes to the product through the different production runs that we did on the humidifier and its packaging. And the most drastic changes we introduced was actually to the packaging of the product.
Jason Seidenfeld: So all of the primary packaging components from the first production run through, the We were making iterative changes and every time we were basically cutting out 10, five to 10% of the costs associated with the packaging components that we didn't know about, we didn't realize upfront, but we basically baked it into our process to say, Hey, we're gonna, every time we're gonna introduce we're gonna reduce the size of the footprint, we're gonna reduce the gauge of the corrugate.
Jason Seidenfeld: We're gonna reduce the number of folds so that the touches at the time of kidding were gonna be. That was like a very iterative process that we did through each production run. That's cool.
Ben Tregoe: And what's the typical engagement period? New brand, you've got the product into market.
Ben Tregoe: You've helped them find the right pricing. Hey, we've got product market. do they stay with you forever or? Yeah, at some point are they're like, thanks guys. We got it from here.
Jason Seidenfeld: Or how does it, yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. The way we've we set up doors, Deb, the intent is to set up a supply chain.
Jason Seidenfeld: That's fully visible, fully transparent to the brand, owners so that ultimately they can take ownership when they're. And what that meant was early days we were working with the founders of, startups and their primary goal necessarily wasn't to get into the weeds or the trenches of the supply chain.
Jason Seidenfeld: But as they scaled their brand, the hope was that they would hire a director of supply or director of product that would take the reins. And so a lot of it the intent was we would set up that supply chain. We would. Engaged all the way until that point. And then we would go through a transition period where we were handing off the keys, what we learned or what we realized after the first couple years, working with a number of brands is as those brand scaled.
Jason Seidenfeld: And even when they brought in dedicated people to lead the charge for supplier product, if they were good at what they were doing, which was typically marketing or distribution, or whatever the growth expansion drivers were that they were leading. Then what that meant was that they needed more help to support backend [00:25:00] operations with their supply chain, or they were investing into new product in which case they were bringing keeping the doorstep team engaged to help drive design and development for additional product lines.
Jason Seidenfeld: So it was really exciting for us was we would engage startups to help get their supply chain set. Thinking that okay. At some point we're gonna get sunseted out. And now six years later, we're working with a number of brands that we've been involved with since pre-revenue days and we're still driving supply chain oversight and new product introduction.
Jason Seidenfeld: And it's been an amazing journey. And we're so lucky to be involved in seeing how they've scaled their business on the front end and being able to play a part in supporting them on the back end. That's so cool.
Ben Tregoe: I, because I can imagine. yeah, you would be like, oh yeah, of course. They're just gonna take this in house and we'll be gone in a year or so.
Ben Tregoe: Yeah. But be able to ride that journey with 'em and continue to add value and
Jason Seidenfeld: yeah. And, I
Ben Tregoe: guess I would imagine it gets harder and I don't know. Does it get harder to add value or as you mature the,
Jason Seidenfeld: yeah I think the the metrics or the KPIs. Yeah, right early days, it's really obvious.
Jason Seidenfeld: Like we've gotta get this product to market. We've gotta hit a certain budget or we schedule otherwise there's no business. And so that's very binary. But then as the businesses as our brand partners mature, and there's more team members, resources, people paying attention to more granular aspects of product and.
Jason Seidenfeld: Then the KPIs just evolve and they just get more and more kind of narrow and honed in on optimizing supply chains for scale. And I've
Ben Tregoe: gotta, I'm gonna ask cuz I'm imagining that listeners are gonna have this question is okay, I've got, I'm thinking of this. This guy sounds awesome. Doorstep sounds amazing.
Ben Tregoe: The engagement model. How do I pay for it? Can I pay for it? Yeah,
Jason Seidenfeld: for sure. Look again we, love working with early stage startup. . And all of the, engagement structures and partnerships that we have, they're tied to the resources that we need to pull in from Doris dev to support the work.
Jason Seidenfeld: And then we'll scope out. We, like to get creative with, our partnerships. So what that means is we're not only doing Hey, a really expensive. Cash based payment structure with our partners. We're all often doing engagements where we can come up with creative ways to work with early stage startups that might be strapped for cash or whatever resources they're strapped for.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah we've, worked across the spectrum of engagements and we're very happy to get creative if everybody's excited and aligned with what it is that we get to work on. that's
Ben Tregoe: awesome. That's awesome. So let's before we started, we were talking about when it goes well, when it goes poorly, the financial implications of those things, I think it would be really interesting for people to hear how getting this wrong can really upend them.
Ben Tregoe: We talked a little bit about pricing and margin and overestimating lifetime value, as well as the de the decrease in cogs, but there's, so it's such a complicated. a piece of the, puzzle. I, just, when I'm thinking about, I just think there's gotta be like 101 different way
Jason Seidenfeld: for it to go wrong.
Jason Seidenfeld: yeah. Even that feels, that's like an understatement, there's 1,001, there's so many traps. Yeah. And the, old saying that I've, that everyone says is like, whatever you think it's gonna cost and how long it's gonna take, you've gotta at least double or triple it on, both both dimens.
Jason Seidenfeld: But there's so that's like really true. That's a decent rule of thumb. Yeah. Decent rule of thumb is look, if you think it's gonna cost you $50,000, it's, there's no way it's gonna cost you double that. And if somebody calls you, it's gonna take six months, make sure you put 12 months into the schedule.
Jason Seidenfeld: Okay. Yeah. And, I think, yeah, I think like everything, when you're dealing with physical things, everything is just a lot harder and more. Definitive than digital products. And what that means is if you make mistakes then they can be really costly in terms of money and time with physical goods if you're making something that requires tooling, so any type of mold to do custom molded parts or [00:30:00] injected.
Jason Seidenfeld: then you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars and at least one month of mold fabrication time. So if you make a mistake that requires you to redesign or redo that, then you're talking about trapping tens of thousands of dollars on set and having to spend another at least month fabricating a new set of molds.
Jason Seidenfeld: Wow. And yeah it's, really important. To be confident going into locking in designs and confident that what you're investing in from a time and money perspective what's gonna come out on the other side is gonna be right. And, I think candidly, that's that's it's, scary and it's hard, but that's that's why we got into the product development and, supply chain work to begin with.
Jason Seidenfeld: As we liked, we liked the, challenge. We might be the team jokes we might be some, somewhat a glut for, pain and punishment sometimes, cuz it's, never easy. It's never to walk in the park, but it's exciting and it's, fun okay.
Ben Tregoe: I've don't underestimate your costs.
Ben Tregoe: Don't underestimate your times. think through the getting it the tooling. What about choosing your suppliers and then getting it from wherever yeah. China back to the states, like how, much can I screw up that? Yeah.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah. That is probably, that's gonna be one of the most important parts of getting something to market successfully is finding the right partners, the right manufacturing partners.
Jason Seidenfeld: It is, it's a marriage, right? You're getting into bed with somebody that you're gonna be working with for months to years, to even longer, if you do it. And and, there's investment everyone kind of thinks that it's this unilateral relationship where I'm paying somebody and they're gonna give me these goods.
Jason Seidenfeld: And therefore as the buyer it's very unilateral. That's really not the case at all. There is this mutual, there should always be treated as such, but this mutual, beneficial relationship between manufacturer and, customer because they're investing energy time and really bandwidth to support bringing something new to market.
Jason Seidenfeld: And again I'm, assuming that we're talking about custom product here, not just buying an off the shelf open tool product. And and so it's really important to approach the relationship with, through that lens. And I always also say that your, contract manufacturer is really the first investor that you need to.
Jason Seidenfeld: Into bed with you, right? Your pitch should be as sharp and as compelling for your contract manufacturer, as it is for you going out to pitch some DC or fund fundraising potential partner cuz you need to convince them that this is a good use of their time, their energy, their effort, that you're gonna be.
Jason Seidenfeld: There's only upside by engaging with. And and, that can also translate into really impactful having a really big impact on your ability to extend your runway. Cause when you get into product development and manufacturing at scale cash flow is king and having access to capital is the most important thing for maintaining your kind of life blood.
Jason Seidenfeld: And one of the easiest and most direct ways to do that is to work through mutually beneficial payment terms for you as a customer with your manufacturing partner. And so it's really important. I, we believe it's really important to approach the relationship as a partnership be transparent with plans and potential opportunities and making sure.
Jason Seidenfeld: Your manufacturers feel like a true partner, cause you're going then be able to extend that into a really potentially lucrative relationship in terms of managing your cash flow.
Ben Tregoe: I love that, cuz that we talk about that to our customers all the time, that your [00:35:00] best source of capital and your least expensive source of capital is better terms from your supplier.
Ben Tregoe: So do whatever you can to, get better terms. What are mistakes that companies make on that front? Do they okay, so they're not transparent, but do companies. Not make their payments on
Jason Seidenfeld: time or yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's the, yeah the most common issue is probably just on time payments with manufacturing partners.
Jason Seidenfeld: And maybe they're not chasing you cuz you're only 20 days late or 30 days late and you're not getting that reminder, but they're tracking, they're, seeing what is the typical kind of days. Payment cycle payment timing with, their AP and, they're taking note and being closed off, not being really transparent or not being forthcoming or considerate of kind of cadence with development.
Jason Seidenfeld: I think a lot of times there isn't consideration. There's a lot of resources on the back end that go into all of the work through development. And so the expectation is, Hey, I'm gonna pay you this deposit to get started on work, and then we're gonna get to this milestone. And then now I'm gonna take a month or two months or three months to like, do what I need to do while you sit and wait.
Jason Seidenfeld: And then when I come back to you, I'm gonna put pressure again on racing to production. and not being considerate, that there's a ton of resources, energy, and effort that go into hitting those milestones or the work that's happening on their end, then translates into just having a bad taste in, their mouth potentially around Hey, these guys, aren't a considerate partner, or didn't give us that you were gonna be sitting on our hands for three months while they got their go to market strategies or their financing in order or whatever it.
Jason Seidenfeld: I think if you're upfront about Hey, we're gonna be working through development together. We need to get to this milestone so that I can go get our capital needed to get through this next phase and being upfront about that is a conversation that should be had. And, then I think there would be mutual understanding and go going into the, full kind of development cycle.
Jason Seidenfeld: I, I
Ben Tregoe: realized that because you, have an office in Hong Kong I've, just assumed that everything we're talking about on the supplier side and the manufacturing side is China, but is, that
Jason Seidenfeld: true? Or do you, yeah, historically that's where our roots for manufacturing was based. And then our, sourcing and manufacturing kind of management team is based in, Hong.
Jason Seidenfeld: We've seen a ton of interest and then pushing for nearshoring or onshoring for production over the last couple of years. So we, have we have transitioned some types of supply production to other places outside of China in the us and Mexico. Even within Asia Southeast Asia Taiwan.
Jason Seidenfeld: We've, seen a lot of basically focus and investment going into pushing outside of just mainland China. That being said for certain product categories we've found it to be incredibly challenging to move outside of China, simply because the, how the infrastructure, the flexibility, the co the, barrier for engage.
Jason Seidenfeld: Is so accessible in China, even with all of the challenges and the trade war implications and, all of that, we've still seen that it's, hard to compete, from a pricing and flexibility standpoint outside of China for a lot of product categories. But it's definitely something that we've seen a ton of interest on an, a ton of energy going into basically brands saying, Hey, we.
Jason Seidenfeld: You, you really need to explore what our supply options are for, outside of China. Yeah.
Ben Tregoe: Yeah. I can imagine. And it almost imagines like Doris, it almost sounds like Doris dev is, like a translation layer between the American or I don't know if you have customers in Europe and Chinese suppliers and manufacturers and the kind of cultural.
Ben Tregoe: ways or is that, is it so common now that yeah. That's no big deal or do you guys still find yourself helping both sides
Jason Seidenfeld: through the process? Yeah I, think that's a [00:40:00] really important dimension to it. There's kind of cultural nuances or expectations around produ manufacturing in China.
Jason Seidenfeld: But I think beyond that there's also. A ton of knowhow, an experience for just manufacturing at scale, or going from zero to one to scale that our team brings that might be specific to the geo geographic region in Asia, but also we can apply to manufacturing elsewhere as well.
Jason Seidenfeld: And so it's not, I would say there's definitely, we're definitely biased because we have a network. But a really robust network of manufacturing partners all over China, and we've got great relationships that we're able to leverage and open the kimono, open the door up for, startups that they wouldn't have access to otherwise.
Jason Seidenfeld: But we wouldn't we don't I would say we wouldn't just limit ourselves to, to, just to just. Yep.
Ben Tregoe: Let me switch gears a little obviously supply chain everybody's, it's been the we can't stop talking about it for the past two years. Were you caught off guard by this or were you like, of course this thing's gonna melt down.
Ben Tregoe: I'm like
Jason Seidenfeld: I, we were definitely Did not expect as gray as crazy of a tidal wave and ripple effect that we saw over the last two years. But we were bracing. Can only, we were bracing for other problems and other kind of points of friction before COVID with an escalating trade war and, the considerations that was bringing between China and the us.
Jason Seidenfeld: And I. COVID brought just a totally different problem into the fold, but very similar in the sense that it just limited our ability to be as flexible or as nimble with setting up new supply chains for scale in the region or being able to find contract manufacturers that were as open.
Jason Seidenfeld: Or had as much flexibility to engage a earlier stage companies. All that being said is it's, been an opportunity to to, flex different muscles and to tell different muscles and to approach the problem with different solutions. And I think our team what's been really nice is our team.
Jason Seidenfeld: In general has been working and focused on working with startups for forever. And so very much used to being nimble and rolling with the punches and figuring stuff out on the fly. And so I think this was just another the last couple years have just been another example of where our team has been able to showcase their ability to be nimble and figure, stuff.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah, that's
Ben Tregoe: awesome. I, can imagine. I can't imagine I, the
Jason Seidenfeld: calls and emails. Yeah. Zoom are all hours of the day night that you guys must have been going through. Yeah, we've got, we've definitely gotten some we've. We've gotten, we've worked through some really challenging, some really weird, challenges over the last couple years and have some pretty outrageous stories and experiences in general vendors closing up shop or.
Jason Seidenfeld: Being locked down and there's just been, there's just been a pretty, a wild swing of all different things that we've experienced. But I think that's part for the course in hardware development and supply chain combinations. There's just a lot, you're dealing with humans, you're dealing with a lot of moving parts.
Jason Seidenfeld: And so there's just, there's always gonna be fires to put out and problems to deal. yeah.
Ben Tregoe: Will we ever return to a 20, 20 world of, or is it is it always gonna be screwed up or is it
Jason Seidenfeld: screwed up for the next five years? Or I think that there's some the pendulum is swinging to some degree back to, where, we were, right.
Jason Seidenfeld: We're taking a soft prices. Import freight. And we're seeing more access and flexibility from contract manufacturing partners. There's still a ton of essentially cost implications around inflation [00:45:00] or even just raw material costs that we are seeing affecting bottom line. We've seen a ton vendor contract manufacturers disappear over the last period.
Jason Seidenfeld: So there's definitely have been big, swings and changes to the overall landscape. And I don't know that we're gonna get the pendulum's gonna go swing all the way back to where it was pre COVID, but I think that there's gonna be some new semblance of normalcy that lives between the crazy stream of COVID times and where we were leading up to that.
Jason Seidenfeld: Yeah
Ben Tregoe: I, in I'm sure DC founders would rather have not gone through all this, but there is a, I think a longer term benefit that the, world D used to be like, yeah, you just you buy something in China, you put it on a boat and then you run some Instagram ads and like, how hard can this be?
Ben Tregoe: And this exposed both on the advertising side and the supply chain side, that there's a lot of complexity to this business, but. underestimate those key parts of your business. It can come back on you really hard and, make it very difficult to get profitable or get capital.
Ben Tregoe: So I, I do think that peop this will have a good benefit know, people have now have religion around supply chain and manufacturing processes.
Jason Seidenfeld: For sure. I think that the importance of services. Yeah. I, think there's a greater respect and understanding for the complex. Of supply chain challenges and what that really means, not just like a sexy headline.
Jason Seidenfeld: I also think that the kind of the bigger implications are that it will it's making things more challenging and the market markets are just getting more competitive. And so with all those things that are happening. what that's doing is really helping to weed out bra basically brands that might not have the legs or the stomach to to, to really flourish.
Jason Seidenfeld: And, but it, what it's doing is it's reinforcing that the brands that do have that have the right infrastructure, the right kind of capabilities. And ability to showcase like innovation and meet customer needs and unlock value for customers through providing solution or whatever it is.
Jason Seidenfeld: I think that the current climate and conditions are really just gonna reinforce that those brands should exist and they'll do really well. Yes.
Ben Tregoe: As you were saying that it, I was thinking you've seen dozens and dozens. Hundreds of companies and founders. And so what traits do those founders have that can build the companies that can flourish and survive?
Ben Tregoe: Or maybe on the flip side? What traits do you see in founders where you're like I don't even wanna work with them. This thing's gonna be at night
Jason Seidenfeld: in a disaster. Yeah I think there's two. there's two kind of traits or, yeah, we'll call it three. Actually three traits that are really important which are persistence, curiosity, and proactiveness.
Jason Seidenfeld: And I think that for all of the founders that we work with, that is, those are traits that they have to embody because diving into a hardware. Startup is really, hard, really stressful, and really, there's just a lot of points of friction to try to navigate. But tho those three traits are really important to help figure it out and work through the hard times.
Jason Seidenfeld: So per persistence just means that that there's gonna be challenges and you're willing to. Dive in head first and figure it out and not give up and, keep your legs pumping as you go through those. Through those challenges. Curiosity is I need to understand these aspects of the business that are gonna be important and how things affect each other.
Jason Seidenfeld: So I can make the right decisions and not just rely on being told X, Y, or Z. And then proactiveness is they've got the ability to be a self starter and not have to wait to be told to do something and they're gonna go figure it out for themselves. And I think those three traits are really, I think, for, at least for my experience that, that's what boils down to being able to successfully navigate [00:50:00] through the challenges that most of these, the startups that we deal with will.
Ben Tregoe: okay. So what about the traits that when you see them, you're like, I don't care. I don't care who wrote your C or your check.
Jason Seidenfeld: We're not doing this. Yeah. I, think like one of, one of the, one of the, ones that are top of mind is probably the inverse of the curiosity trait, which is not being inquisitive or wanting to understand why or how.
Jason Seidenfeld: And just, doing it blindly without having the inherent kind of inquisitiveness to to, understand. I, think that often will translate into somebody who can make the wrong decision for the wrong reason and not understand why it's the wrong. I think that you're always, unfortunately through the GA through the the course of starting a new business or whatever it is that you're doing, you're gonna make wrong decisions and that's totally fine.
Jason Seidenfeld: But you have to, under, you have to come out of it, understanding why it was the wrong decision or why it was a mistake. And I don't think that you can do that if you don't if you're not necessarily curious or you're, or you don't wanna understand the why.
Ben Tregoe: How, much of an advantage is experience?
Ben Tregoe: If a founder has done something like this before, is it just 10
Jason Seidenfeld: X easier? Or is it no it's, interesting. It's it's a, it could be a double edged sword, like experience brings a ton of value and benefit. And for sure it, it will help inform how to do something efficiently based off of what that person did previously.
Jason Seidenfeld: But it also can potentially narrow put blinders on for how to approach problems or how to approach something that somebody who's inexperience or new to a category or new to a, to, whatever might bring a fresh perspective or fresh take on it. And so we've, seen there's definitely.
Jason Seidenfeld: There's a balance. You don't want somebody who is going to lead with naive. And again, not be curious to want to understand the why. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not gonna figure it out and then versa, somebody super experienced might be too closed minded to be open, to trying something in a new way.
Jason Seidenfeld: So I, I think that it's not, I think maybe it's. There's trade offs. Every everything's life is a game of trade offs, I think. And it's just figuring out what you wanna optimize for within your set of conditions and constraints. And I think that's one of those set of conditions.
Ben Tregoe: Justin, is there anything that you wish I had asked or
Jason Seidenfeld: Ben, I think you did a no, you did. You did a good job asking. really good questions about the process. I think one big takeaway I would share is really just going into it, wanting to learn and get exposure to as much as possible talking to as many people that have been through it, reaching out, asking questions, reading, listening, learning as much because there is no one way to do.
Jason Seidenfeld: Hardware development or supply chain set up in management. There's no silver bullet approach. Even though we've been doing, I've been doing it for over 10 years and we get paid the big bucks to do it on behalf of brands. There isn't a silver bullet approach that we would take to the process.
Jason Seidenfeld: We have best practices, but there's nuanced things to understand and figure out as you go through it. So the only way to really approach it is to be open minded and to have as much exposure and understanding going into the process. I love it. All
Ben Tregoe: People can find you and, Doris dev, doris.dev.
Ben Tregoe: And is that where they start
Jason Seidenfeld: the process if they wanna reach out to you? Yeah my, you can reach out to info Doris dev.com. We're always open to getting a cold email. Justin Doris dev.com. And they get a lot of cold emails. I don't know,
Ben Tregoe: maybe nobody our podcast
Jason Seidenfeld: In a year from now, our audience is huge.
Jason Seidenfeld: That's true. If it's not for me I'll, point it in I'll point it in the direction of somebody who can be more helpful than I can. Nice. Awesome.[00:55:00]
